Anatomy of a Failed Design: Role Protection.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 5:50 pm

Yes, we've established 'Closet Trolls, lulz'. Many times. Try something else, or stop wanking to 4.Fail. God fucking damnit.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:15 pm

Roy: Link to MW fail?

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:17 pm

Roy wrote: Yes, we've established 'Closet Trolls, lulz'. Many times. Try something else, or stop wanking to 4.Fail. God fucking damnit.

Well it doesn't have to be a closet, it can just be a series of corridors.

Honestly in D&D, a dungeon battle is way more common than an open terrain overland battle anyway.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:23 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:Roy: Link to MW fail?

Thought I already had but...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread. ... 392&page=3

Fail gets foreshadowed 4 posts down (and if you aren't seeing something by Artistshipper, your posts per page are set wrong).

Go 10 down, and it really kicks in. Pretty much everything after that is Fail.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=63967

This. Pick any, many, all. The entire thread was created as a coordinated effort with at least one mod to bait me, and with or without that passive aggressive BS, the entire thing is a train wreck fucking another train wreck to the tune of Yakkety Sax. Co starring (il)Logic(al)Ninja. Now with 300% more Fail!

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:25 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
Roy wrote: Yes, we've established 'Closet Trolls, lulz'. Many times. Try something else, or stop wanking to 4.Fail. God fucking damnit.
Well it doesn't have to be a closet, it can just be a series of corridors.

Honestly in D&D, a dungeon battle is way more common than an open terrain overland battle anyway.

Closet = closed space.

What are corridors kids?

I'll say one thing about the 4.Fails. As much as they can make you lose all hope for humanity, such that you want to do a Real World Wish Loop for Darwin's Chainsaw, they have a tendency to turn right back around and make you laugh at their rampant idiocy. This is the one, and only instance where their inconsistency actually has advantageous traits.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:29 pm

Darwin's Chainsaw?

EDIT:

Hammerfist wrote:Logical argument often = my way or the highway. Coming from one who has had many 'logical arguments' with sig others, parents, bosses, etc only to discover that logic and beauty have a lot in common: they're in the eye of the beholder.

Ffffffuuuuuuuuu--

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:30 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:Darwin's Chainsaw?

Chainsaw of Natural Selection. Whatever it's called. Where the fuck is that comic when you need them?

Edit: I know, that's some major Fail isn't it? He's bordering on 4.Failtard himself, despite originally being quite intelligent, thus further demonstrating 4.Fail is the source of all that is wrong and bad about the world. Even the stuff that happened before it was made.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:32 pm

We should really make another "Thread Fail" thread.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:33 pm

Roy wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:Darwin's Chainsaw?
Chainsaw of Natural Selection. Whatever it's called. Where the fuck is that comic when you need them?

http://www.queenofwands.net/d/20031208.html

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat May 02, 2009 6:38 pm

That should really be a spell.

Against fighters or monks, it becomes a +5 weapon of awesome.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:03 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:We should really make another "Thread Fail" thread.

Should, but too many whine about it.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:18 pm

Roy wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Roy wrote:3.5 = you auto win with Candle of Invocation, but you have to jump through a lot of hoops just to find it, and more to recognize its significance as stated.

4.0 = you auto win by picking up a bow and hopping on a horse.

What the fuck does it have to do with tree archers indeed.
The mounted archer is almost completely equivalent to the climbing archer. Both require a specific environment to succeed ("break the game"), and otherwise have fairly simple counters.

In 3e, the tree-climbing archer will curl up and die if she meets a level-appropriate CR 3 shadow. That's broken too. A mish-mash of 'you're screwed' abilities does not make for a more balanced game.
There is no fucking comparison. The tree guy is countered by anyone with climbing, flight, ranged attacks... aka most of 3.5. The horse archer requires enemies to be as fast or faster, and have the same or better range... which very few actually do, and those few just make you have to be a half decent horse archer.

So it's completely fucking laughable to freak out about the tree archer, as seriously, by the time you even get up there combat is over anyways, so you don't even get to be in a tree. However, because 4.Fail is guilty of blandification brand Fail again, they can't counter basic shit like that due to a combo of MMO style mobs (grind on the numbers with your numbers) and well... MMO style mobs (the game breaks when you stop doing this and start thinking... even a little).

So ultimately, the counters end up boiling down to Oberoni and closet trolls lulz. Which is the same as the game telling you to stop thinking and go back to grinding on the MOBs.

Wow, your "meme" bullshit never ceases to astound me. Congratulations in making a simple argument into three paragraphs of "lulz.Fail".

The horse archer doesn't work in a forest. The horse archer doesn't work against simple fortifications. The horse archer doesn't work in a dungeon.

Yeah, the horse archer is very effective in a large, completely open field. The closet troll is very effective in a closet.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 7:24 pm

'Three paragraphs of lulz fail'...

Lol, what? Did you even read the post, or are you just pulling a classic 4.Fail temper tantrum?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:03 pm

Catharz wrote:The horse archer doesn't work in a forest.

Actually, the 4e rules on cover allow a horse archer to work in the forest. The very real penalties that cause horse archers to be largely ineffective in wooded areas do not apply in the 4e rule set. Straight up, you are allowed to move horses in weird hopscotch patterns at no penalty and with no chance of failure. Furthermore, trees do not stop arrows in 4e. Trees in any amount simply give a cover bonus, and that is neither particularly crippling nor particularly dependent upon how many trees are around.

Your point about indoor areas is more accurate however. I don't regard an inside area with 150 feet of free space to be a "closet" and I think it's pretty disingenuous to make that argument.

-Username17

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:13 pm

Except for the part where if you've came into the area, you can go out of it.

And the part about Oberoni.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:49 pm

Roy wrote: Closet = closed space.

What are corridors kids?

Honestly Roy, the game is Dungeons and Dragons, so saying that stuff that happens in closed spaces don't count... well that's just fucking stupid.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:58 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
Roy wrote: Closet = closed space.

What are corridors kids?
Honestly Roy, the game is Dungeons and Dragons, so saying that stuff that happens in closed spaces don't count... well that's just fucking stupid.

Fliers, y halo dere!

As soon as you consider how many enemies favor open spaces vs closets that you'd want to fight, any claim about the name falls flat. Starting with the other half of the claim about the name. Lol, dragons who can't fly. Fail.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:25 pm

Roy wrote:'Three paragraphs of lulz fail'...

Lol, what? Did you even read the post, or are you just pulling a classic 4.Fail temper tantrum?

This was the meaningful part of your post:

Roy wrote: "The tree guy is countered by anyone with climbing, flight, ranged attacks... aka most of 3.5. The horse archer requires enemies to be as fast or faster, and have the same or better range... which very few actually do, and those few just make you have to be a half decent horse archer.

Things like

Roy wrote:However, because 4.Fail is guilty of blandification brand Fail again, they can't counter basic shit like that due to a combo of MMO style mobs (grind on the numbers with your numbers) and well... MMO style mobs (the game breaks when you stop doing this and start thinking... even a little).

are just catch-phrase smoke and mirrors, and have nothing to do with whether the game breaks down. If 4e-style horse archery was available in an MMO, you can bet your ass that people would bee all over it in a second.

You're right that 4e tends to break down at certain points (including a horse archer under the right conditions), but making yourself a 3e apologist really doesn't help your argument.

And accusing me of having a "4.Fail temper tantrum"...what is that even supposed to mean?

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:53 pm

Roy wrote: Fliers, y halo dere!

As soon as you consider how many enemies favor open spaces vs closets that you'd want to fight, any claim about the name falls flat. Starting with the other half of the claim about the name. Lol, dragons who can't fly. Fail.

Some caverns can be pretty big, with a high ceiling that lets you fly around.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:55 pm

Of course they would, because kiting > MMOs. 4.Fail is also guilty of blanding up everything. As this is bad, tagging it as Fail is completely valid. Further, both MMOs and 4.0 are about grinding on the numbers with your numbers instead of ya know, thinking... which is an exploit.

Snark =/= catchphrase smoke and mirrors. Fail. I'd expect a Denner, even a 4.Fail Denner to know better.

Lol at claiming I'm some sort of 3.5 defender. Funny how I've phrased most of my arguments as either 4.Fail is fucked in new ways, or 3.5 was fucked that way, but 4.Fail made it worse when they were supposed to make it better. Were I what you said I was, I'd be pulling the same bullshit the 4.Fail whiners do. Except ya know, I'm not. Fail.

Having a 4.Fail temper tantrum is when you do this:

Wow, your "meme" bullshit never ceases to astound me. Congratulations in making a simple argument into three paragraphs of "lulz.Fail".

Also known as WAH he said something bad about 4.0!

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:57 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
Roy wrote: Fliers, y halo dere!

As soon as you consider how many enemies favor open spaces vs closets that you'd want to fight, any claim about the name falls flat. Starting with the other half of the claim about the name. Lol, dragons who can't fly. Fail.
Some caverns can be pretty big, with a high ceiling that lets you fly around.

Which brings us back to Mongols = win.

Isn't 4.Fail fun?

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sat May 02, 2009 11:01 pm

Roy wrote:
Which brings us back to Mongols = win.

Isn't 4.Fail fun?

Since when can mongols fly up walls?

a 10x10 cavern with a 9 square high ceiling is plenty of room for a dragon to fly around tactically, but not really enough room for a horseman to avoid charges.

Also if something doesn't perform well in open spaces, then chances it will not build its lair in an open space. The monsters are the defenders, therefore they basically get to choose the terrain. I don't see what you're whinging about.

And 3.5 was honestly much worse in most regards, because of its flight. A horseman moves on 2 dimensions, which is only really bad if he has room to run away. A flyer may move on dimensions that the monster can't even move on, which is way worse. Except for outside battles, which honestly, neither edition did well, I just don't see how 4E is anymore fail than 3E. Horsemen are easy to stop in a dungeon setting. You just find a fucking corner and go around it.

Now about being outside, lets not kid ourselves and pretend like wide open spaces worked any better in 3E than they did in 4E. It's just that 4E can actually handle semiopen spaces a bit better. WHere in 3E, greater invis + fly was just pure win for almost every battle.

Falgund · Post by **Falgund** » Sat May 02, 2009 11:05 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:If 4e-style horse archery was available in an MMO, you can bet your ass that people would bee all over it in a second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiting_(MMORPG_term)

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat May 02, 2009 11:33 pm

50 * 50 feet isn't big, especially when discussing dragons who likely have wingspans close to that distance.

As I said before, you just avoid the closet trolls. Done.

Also, everyone can get flight. Most can get ranged attacks and/or teleport. Done.

Stop whining because 3.5 let you have actual options as if this were a bad thing, and railroading is doing it right.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat May 02, 2009 11:33 pm

Roy wrote: Lol at claiming I'm some sort of 3.5 defender. Funny how I've phrased most of my arguments as either 4.Fail is fucked in new ways, or 3.5 was fucked that way, but 4.Fail made it worse when they were supposed to make it better. Were I what you said I was, I'd be pulling the same bullshit the 4.Fail whiners do. Except ya know, I'm not. Fail.

You're claiming that in 3e the only equivalent to a 4e mounted archer is chain binding with a candle of invocation. That's exactly the sort of bullshit people defending 4e pull out.

Roy wrote:Having a 4.Fail temper tantrum is when you do this:

Wow, your "meme" bullshit never ceases to astound me. Congratulations in making a simple argument into three paragraphs of "lulz.Fail".
Also known as WAH he said something bad about 4.0!

I think you misunderstand me, Roy. I'm not about to jump on your "4.Fail" bandwagon, but I doubt that anyone besides you would accuse me of being a defender of 4e. If you don't misunderstand me, and the only purpose of these attacks is to take the focus away from gaming discussion and put me on the defensive, congratulations.